What interests me in this conversation is how it gets applied to codependency. I think a lot of folks who are working their way out of codependent relationships have to realize agency and stop captiulating (or laying down ones self) to the other person.
The way I understand Jesus' teaching on dying to self invites me to give my life over to GOD --as Jesus did -- rather than letting myself or other people operate as Lord & judge of me. So, I think this teaching has power to free a person from codependency (which I see essentially as idolatry and complying with others out of fear). Then much servanthood and even self-care (such as Sabbath) is often required of me all in service to the shepherd who leads me and supplies whatever is needed for the task.
So self-with makes sense in the with-god sense, but not as a direct jump to with-others.
Geoff, thanks for this very insightful and challenging piece. Are you familiar with the work of Sam Wells, formerly Dean of Chapel at Duke, now rector of St Martin in the Fields in London. Sam has written often about "with" as the most important word in the Bible. Put that together with Gregory of Nazianzus on participation and you have a feast for reflection.
Yes, one of them. Sorry, I sent four docs as an email reply, but then got a note that that doesn't work. Here are three other sources, probably a bit redundant: http://thecresset.org/2013/Easter/Wells_E2013.html
Deborah, I trust you saw the links I added above. Much of my ministry the last few years of full-time employment in an Anglican diocese focused on clergy care. I've now shifted, in "retirement," to spiritual direction. I wish you well in your doctoral work. Persevere!
Late to the game here…very thought-provoking. This brings to mind Skye Jethani’s book “With” and Alison Cook’s discussion on selfish/selfless/selfhood.
Have you done a deep dive into ifs meets imanuel approach? I met my “self” two years ago through ifs and am slowly getting to know my parts, introducing them to Jesus, getting healing, leading, discipleship
Boundaries for the soul is one of my favorite books recommended by curt Thompson. Jesus meets ifs is how I hold space for others in my coaching practice with some somatic/polyvagal, bilateral stimulation, and icf style questions.
Thanks! Just listened. Love it. Did you ever read the boundaries for your soul book or her second book? Sometimes when I hear your convos/read your writing, I wonder how a parts/self/Jesus lens might shift the convo…im admittedly quite ifs obsessed and listen to quite a bit of ifs live podcast and the one inside podcast. I’m just getting to know you guys, very thankful for the podcast and your writing and loving the attachment class so far!! I’m hoping to find a supervision group for IFS/Immanuel spiritual directors I can be a part long-term. Trusting Jesus to guide. Peace to you from Georgia!
Wow. I like this. Will be chewing on it.
What interests me in this conversation is how it gets applied to codependency. I think a lot of folks who are working their way out of codependent relationships have to realize agency and stop captiulating (or laying down ones self) to the other person.
The way I understand Jesus' teaching on dying to self invites me to give my life over to GOD --as Jesus did -- rather than letting myself or other people operate as Lord & judge of me. So, I think this teaching has power to free a person from codependency (which I see essentially as idolatry and complying with others out of fear). Then much servanthood and even self-care (such as Sabbath) is often required of me all in service to the shepherd who leads me and supplies whatever is needed for the task.
So self-with makes sense in the with-god sense, but not as a direct jump to with-others.
Yes, definitely. We submit to one another between we submit to the Lord, but no one else is "lord" over me.
Love this. Thank you!
Geoff, thanks for this very insightful and challenging piece. Are you familiar with the work of Sam Wells, formerly Dean of Chapel at Duke, now rector of St Martin in the Fields in London. Sam has written often about "with" as the most important word in the Bible. Put that together with Gregory of Nazianzus on participation and you have a feast for reflection.
I know of Wells, but where does he write about "with" as the most important word. I'd love to look at that.
/Users/arthurgoing/Desktop/WITH/The_Most_Important_Word .pdf
Is this the document? https://chapel-archives.oit.duke.edu/documents/Dec24_The_Most_Important_Word.pdf
Yes, one of them. Sorry, I sent four docs as an email reply, but then got a note that that doesn't work. Here are three other sources, probably a bit redundant: http://thecresset.org/2013/Easter/Wells_E2013.html
https://canadianmennonite.org/stories/most-important-word
https://epistlesandepiphanies.wordpress.com/2018/04/30/the-ministry-of-being-with/
I haven't yer read this book but it looks to be a full fleshing-out of the "with" thematic: https://www.amazon.com/Incarnational-Ministry-Church-Samuel-Wells/dp/0802874851/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=AUTHOR&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qmTGjg-ScvtPrb_Ggvd4bA3b9YsgN22S5tvmB8JADYxv_6InGsI8GNY07MvpEI9pEQsK8mBDp_zbATlHopc_sBZJ9oz9y9DsN6N1cTrr_c_CcLqax3der1XQ0x-uiyPmzX1NqZEBFCXY9MJaigVewhySeDp2WbRYRtQ_y2tbKfmCuwTPww4k9GCcFI4y3PMAqZR1dTfl9TzYiGcUlChMc6zXH018YJTy9k2qyVdl0jw.EG6vl0KmdKIu6sRQ9RgsOuw6tYm2MsK-_4Es3rdrvq0&qid=&sr=
I'll dig out some links and send in a little while.
@Arthur, I am working on a doctoral project about wellness and self-care for church leaders. I am interested in what you can share as well.
@Geoff, this is a thought-provoking article and I look forward to the next one!
Deborah, I trust you saw the links I added above. Much of my ministry the last few years of full-time employment in an Anglican diocese focused on clergy care. I've now shifted, in "retirement," to spiritual direction. I wish you well in your doctoral work. Persevere!
Late to the game here…very thought-provoking. This brings to mind Skye Jethani’s book “With” and Alison Cook’s discussion on selfish/selfless/selfhood.
Have you done a deep dive into ifs meets imanuel approach? I met my “self” two years ago through ifs and am slowly getting to know my parts, introducing them to Jesus, getting healing, leading, discipleship
Boundaries for the soul is one of my favorite books recommended by curt Thompson. Jesus meets ifs is how I hold space for others in my coaching practice with some somatic/polyvagal, bilateral stimulation, and icf style questions.
For sure. Allison Cook is great. We had her on the podcast a bit ago (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1752092/11435083).
And Cyd integrates IFS and Immauel prayer which a bit with her clients.
Thanks! Just listened. Love it. Did you ever read the boundaries for your soul book or her second book? Sometimes when I hear your convos/read your writing, I wonder how a parts/self/Jesus lens might shift the convo…im admittedly quite ifs obsessed and listen to quite a bit of ifs live podcast and the one inside podcast. I’m just getting to know you guys, very thankful for the podcast and your writing and loving the attachment class so far!! I’m hoping to find a supervision group for IFS/Immanuel spiritual directors I can be a part long-term. Trusting Jesus to guide. Peace to you from Georgia!